---------- Forwarded message ---------
Date: Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 7:32 AM
Subject: Fredrick Toben responds to Roberto Meuhlenkamp
To: Michael Santomauro <RePorterNoteBook@gmail.com>
Santomauro – I been busy – could you post this for me, please.
Thanks, mate.
Fredrick
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Friday, September 17, 2010 9:57:00 PM
Roberto Muehlenkamp said...
Thanks for an insight into the reasoning of certain people who are impressed by "Dalton"'s ignorant and mendacious pamphlet.
And you can rest assured that I have read it in the meantime and seen no reason to change my opinion about the book or its author. On the contrary.
"Revisionists" may be right in that the Nazi genocide of the Jews is talked about way too much in the media, etc. But denying it or playing it down is the stupidest conceivable way of doing something about this situation. Don't expect dumb liars like "Dalton" to understand that, though.
Sunday, September 19, 2010 1:06:00 PM
michael santomauro said...
From: Fredrick Toben [mailto:toben@toben.biz]
Sent: Monday, 20 September 2010 12:36 PM
"A discussion with Michael Santomauro and Thomas Dalton, Ph.D."
In his comment Roberto Muehlenkamp offers no new aspect except that his comment reveals he is afflicted by a deeply authoritarian mindset that cannot tolerate another viewpoint.
He is great on personal abuse, and instead of asking the basic question, which is Faurisson's challenge: Show me or draw me the murder weapon, the homicidal gas chamber? - he avoids basic scientific research thinking.
To date Faurisson's challenge remains just that. Why?
Then, another basic question: Where is the written order that allegedly started the systematic extermination process? Any bureaucracy needs a written order before it begins physically to act. Don't tell me that all Germans involved in the alleged extermination process knew that Hitler hated the Jews and that to fulfill his hate-driven plan needed no written order.
The Holocaust is a miracle story that has no reality in space and time, only in memory.
Monday, September 20, 2010 6:28:00 AM
Roberto Muehlenkamp said...
Like Mr. "Dalton", his publisher can offer nothing better than old herrings in a new can.
Authoritarian mindset? Nonsense. I can accept any other viewpoint that is duly substantiated by evidence. Unfortunately "Revisionist" viewpoints are sorely lacking in this respect.
Faurisson's "basic question"? Apart from the fact that homicidal gas chambers are not the "basic murder weapon" (they accounted for little more than half of the Jewish victims of Nazi genocide and mass murder and a much lower percentage of all victims of Nazi crimes), it's not like the homicidal gas chambers cannot be reconstructed in their essential features on the basis of eyewitness testimonies - see for instance the CAD Reconstruction of the Gas Chambers in Treblinka. And even if eyewitness testimonies were not precise enough to allow for such reconstruction, they would still leave no room for reasonable doubt that these devices existed and were used for mass murder. No, they are no longer physically visible because the Nazis destroyed or dismantled them. But then, this also applies to just about all facilities of the Stalin's Gulag labor camps, to mention just one example. Faurisson's "challenge" is bereft of logic.
Basic scientific research thinking? No stranger to me, as it consists in testing a thesis against evidence and determining if and to what extent evidence supports this thesis. "Revisionists" are understandably unwilling to put their theses to that test.
A written order from the Führer? The quest for such order, which would have been almost certainly destroyed if it had been issued, reveals a laughable ignorance of how the Nazi state's decision-making progress functioned at high levels. The Führer hardly ever issued orders, not to mention written ones. He let his paladins know what his policy was and what programs and procedures he accordingly wished them to prepare, whereupon said paladins did what they thought the Führer wanted them to do and submitted it to his approval. Furthermore guys like Himmler and Heydrich were allowed and displayed a great degree of initiative. A book that might help Santomauro overcome his ignorance is Christopher Browning's The Origins of the Final Solution.
A miracle story that has no reality in space and time? That applies not to the amply documented Nazi genocide of the Jews, but to the cloud-cuckoo-land fantasies of Santomauro and his ilk about an all-powerful conspiracy that, among other utterly implausible achievements, is supposed to have induced millions of Jewish non-victims throughout the world into concealing their identity and origins and refrain from compensation claims. Or does Santomauro endorse the even more preposterous "fish tale" lunacy of Mr. "Dalton"?
"Revisionists" projecting their own fallacies onto their opponents is a spectacle well known to who is familiar with these people. Santomauro's rambling is just more of the same.
Monday, September 20, 2010 11:40:00 AM
Roberto Muehlenkamp said...
Oh, I see now that the rambling was authored by Mr. Toben.
I had forgotten that Mr. Santomauro likes to play the messenger for other enlightened spirits from "Revisionist" cloud-cuckoo-land ...
Monday, September 20, 2010 11:49:00 AM
Fredrick Töben responds: 22 September 2010
1. Roberto Muehlenkamp's response is typical of those individuals who uncritically believe in the Holocaust narrative and who feel threatened by having to concede that a raging public discussion has been in progress since the late 1960s. Labelling Mr Santomauro as a 'messenger' merely reflects Mr Muehlenkamp's own personal frustrations at not being in control of setting the Holocaust narrative parameters to his likings. Becoming abusive towards those who dissent from his own held beliefs about matters Holocaust indicates Muehlenkamp's moral and intellectual bankruptcy.
2. Over these past 40 years the Holocaust narrative has changed in detail and re-fabricating itself as Revisionists sift through the rubbish. Revisionists do not deny anything because their task has been to evaluate the details of the official Holocaust narrative, which as stated above, keeps on changing. For example, it was through the Zündel Toronto trials of 1984-5 and 1988 that established the 4 million deaths figure at Auschwitz was a nonsense and the removal and replacement of the official 20 plaques with an inscribed figure of 1.0-1.5 million deaths confirmed this.
3. Then in 1996 the alleged homicidal gas chamber, Krema I, at Auschwitz Stammlager, was de-commissioned by van Pelt/Dwork with the claim that this re-construction was made to symbolically represent what happened at Auschwitz-Birkenau's Krema II.
4. In 2002 non-Revisionist news magazine Der Spiegel editor, Fritjof Meyer, stated that there were no gassings at Auschwitz-Birkenau, something Gitta Sereny also stated in The Times on 29 August 2001. This effectively removes Auschwitz I-Stammlager and Auschwitz II-Birkenau as gassing/killing centres.
5. Mr David Brockschmidt wrote to the US Holocaust Museum asking about the gas chambers and on 21 April 1995 Michael Berenbaum responded. Among other things he stated: "1. We do have crematoria ovens in the Museums. We could not bring over gas chambers because there was no original that was available for us to bring to the United States. Instead we made a model of the crematoria and labelled it a model." This statement speaks for itself.
6. If the 'homicidal gas chambers are not the "basic murder weapon"…', then why has Germar Rudolf's The Rudolf Report, and its precedent, The Leuchter Report, been criminalized/banned in Germany, for example? Remember how the official 9/11 reports fiddled the scientific data to fit the official narrative, which is exactly what Soviet Union scientists had to do when they had to align their research with Marxist ideology. Of interest is the fact that Rudolf, as a true scientist, stated that his results are not absolute because there is always an element of error in any research. This was taken up by some critics as indicating Rudolf's work is basically flawed when in fact any body of scientific research admits that results are not absolute. Note how those scientists, who are pushing climate change ideology, are absolute in their assertions, something that is quite un-scientific. In scientific research an element of error is always expected
7. Muehlenkamp's mindset is an absolute mindset that cannot tolerate dissent because as new information comes along he would have to revise his views on things. How does he cope with the deaths reduction at Auschwitz – from 4 million to 1.-1.5 million? And yet the overarching six million was not reduced. Why not?
8. This paragraph reveals Muehlenkamp's mindset in full flourish:
"A written order from the Führer? The quest for such order, which would have been almost certainly destroyed if it had been issued, reveals a laughable ignorance of how the Nazi state's decision-making progress functioned at high levels. The Führer hardly ever issued orders, not to mention written ones. He let his paladins know what his policy was and what programs and procedures he accordingly wished them to prepare, whereupon said paladins did what they thought the Führer wanted them to do and submitted it to his approval. Furthermore guys like Himmler and Heydrich were allowed and displayed a great degree of initiative. A book that might help Santomauro overcome his ignorance is Christopher Browning's The Origins of the Final Solution."
Raoul Hilberg in his The Destruction of European Jews stated there were two written Hitler orders that started the Final Solution process. Yet after he had left the witness stand in the Zündel Toronto trial, Hilberg had himself made history by having admitted there were no written orders. Muehlenkamp in this respect is either ignorant of the fact or a blatant liar. No bureaucracy operates without written orders when it entails massive actions such as the alleged extermination of European Jews. Muehlenkamp's claim that to insist there be a written order: "…reveals a laughable ignorance of how the Nazi state's decision-making progress functioned at high levels." is pure rubbish. The German war machine was meticulous in record keeping. In his own words, Muehlenkamp's embrace of this massive conspiracy theory – that Germans exterminated Jews – is behaviour that is "…projecting their own fallacies onto their opponents [and] is a spectacle well known to who is familiar with these people".
9. As an afterthought, I assume Muehlenkamp is aware of the fact that a whole legal fraternity exists that persecutes Revisionists in trials where the matters of fact of the Holocaust are never tested for truth content. This is done because not believing in the Holocaust scandalises certain societies! But he would know that, and hence it explains his abusive and defamatatory tone because through verbal abuse it makes it easier for him to deflect opening his mind to the fact that he has believed in nonsense for decades. No wonder he needs to project his hatred on anyone who demands clarity of thought and physical proof that during World War Two Germans systematically exterminated European Jews in homicidal gas chambers, in particular at Auschwitz concentration camp. That this belief is also pure German hatred need not be canvassed at this stage.
10. My brief response, however, is inadequate and hence I augment it with Professor Arthur Butz's brief 12-point summary of what Revisionism is all about.
A Short Introduction to the Study of Holocaust Revisionism
By Arthur R. Butz
1. I see three principal reasons for the widespread but erroneous belief in the legend of millions of Jews killed by the Germans during World War II: US and British troops found horrible piles of corpses in the west German camps they captured in 1945 (e.g. Dachau and Belsen), there are no longer large communities of Jews in Poland, and historians generally support the legend.
2. During both world wars Germany was forced to fight typhus, carried by lice in the constant traffic with the east. That is why all accounts of entry into the German concentration camps speak of shaving of hair and showering and other delousing procedures, such as treatment of quarters with the pesticide Zyklon. That was also the main reason for a high death rate in the camps, and the crematoria that existed in all.
3. When Germany collapsed in chaos then of course all such defenses ceased, and typhus and other diseases became rampant in the camps, which quartered mainly political prisoners, ordinary criminals, homosexuals, conscientious objectors, and Jews conscripted for labor. Hence the horrible scenes, which however had nothing to do with "extermination" or any deliberate policy. Moreover the west German camps involved were not the alleged "extermination camps", which were all in Poland (e.g. Auschwitz and Treblinka) and which were all evacuated or shut down before capture by the Soviets, who found no such scenes.
4. The "Final Solution" spoken of in the German documents was a program of evacuation, resettlement and deportation of Jews with the ultimate objective of expulsion from Europe. During the war Jews of various nationalities were being moved east, as one stage in this Final Solution. The legend claims that the motion was mainly for extermination purposes.
5. The great majority of the millions allegedly exterminated were east European, not German or west European, Jews. For that reason study of the problem via population statistics has been difficult to impossible, but it is a fact that there are no longer large communities of Jews in Poland. However the Germans were only one of several parties involved in moving Jews around. The Soviets deported virtually all of the Jews of eastern Poland to their interior in 1940. After the war, with Polish and other Jews pouring out of the east into occupied west Germany, the Zionists moved large numbers to Palestine, and the US and other countries absorbed many Jews, in most cases under conditions making impossible a numerical accounting. Moreover the Polish borders were changed drastically at the end of the war; the country was literally moved west.
6. Historians generally support the legend, but there are precedents for nearly incomprehensible blindness on the part of scholars. For example throughout the Middle Ages even the Pope's political enemies conceded his false claim that the 4th century Emperor Constantine had ceded rule of the west to the Pope, although all knew very well that Constantine had been succeeded by more emperors. Near unanimity among the academics is especially suspect when there exist great political pressures; in some countries Holocaust revisionists have been prosecuted.
7. It is easy to show that the extermination legend merits skepticism. Even the casual reader of the Holocaust literature knows that during the war virtually nobody acted as though it was happening. Thus it is common to berate the Vatican, the Red Cross and the Allies (especially the intelligence agencies) for their ignorance and inaction, and to explain that the Jews generally did not resist deportation because they did not know what was in store for them. If you add all this up you have the strange claim that for almost three years German trains, operating on a continental scale in densely civilized regions of Europe, were regularly and systematically moving millions of Jews to their deaths, and nobody noticed except for a few of our Jewish leaders who were making public "extermination" claims.
8. On closer examination even those few Jewish leaders were not acting as though it was happening. Ordinary communications between the occupied and neutral countries were open, and they were in contact with the Jews whom the Germans were deporting, who thus could not have been in ignorance of "extermination" if those claims had any validity.
9. This incredible ignorance must also be attributed to Hans Oster's department in German military intelligence, correctly labeled "the veritable general staff of the opposition to Hitler" in a recent review.
10. What we are offered in evidence was gathered after the war, in trials. The evidence is almost all oral testimony and "confessions". Without the evidence of these trials there would be no significant evidence of "extermination". One must pause and ponder this carefully. Were trials needed to determine that the Battle of Waterloo happened? The bombings of Hamburg, Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki? The slaughter in Cambodia? Yet this three year program, of continental scope, claiming millions of victims, requires trials to argue its reality. I am not arguing that the trials were illegal or unfair; I am arguing that such historical logic as the legend rests on must not be countenanced. Such events cannot happen without generating commensurate and contemporaneous evidence for their reality, just as a great forest fire cannot take place without producing smoke. One may as well believe that New York City was burned down, if confessions to the deed can be produced.
11. Detailed consideration of the specific evidence put forward in support of the legend has been a focus of the revisionist literature and cannot be undertaken here, but I shall mention one point. The claim of the legend is that there were no technical means provided for the specific task of extermination, and that means originally provided for other purposes did double duty in improvised arrangements. Thus the Jews were allegedly gassed with the pesticide Zyklon, and their corpses disappeared into the crematoria along with the deaths from "ordinary" causes (the ashes or other remains of millions of victims never having been found).
12. Surely any thoughtful person must be skeptical.
Arthur R. Butz is an associate professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science at Northwestern University.
http://mccormick.northwestern.edu/directory/profiles/Arthur-Butz.html
This article was originally published in the Daily Northwestern of May 13, 1991, corrected May 14.
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