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Aug 6, 2011

new essay by petras - Colombia: Pillage, Promise and Peace

 

 

Colombia:  Pillage, Promise and Peace

James Petras

 

Invited paper to be presented to the “Encuentro Nacional de comunidades Campesinas, Afrodescendientes e Indigenas por la Tierra y la Paz de Colombia

“El dialogo es la Ruta”

12 al 15 de agosto 2011

BarrancabermejaColombia

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Colombia:  Pillage, Promise and Peace

James Petras

Introduction:

            We live in a time of great destruction and grand economic opportunities and Latin America is no exception.  In the global context, the US Empire is engaged in destructive wars (Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Libya, Yemen, Somalia and Haiti).  In contrast China, India, Brazil, Argentina and other “emerging economies” are expanding trade, investments and reducing poverty.  The European Union (EU) and the United States (USA) are in deep economic crises.  The EU “periphery” (Greece, Ireland, Portugal, Spain) are totally bankrupt.  The US “dependencies” in North America (Mexico), Central America and the Caribbean are virtual narco-states plagued by mass poverty, astronomical crime rates and economic stagnation.  The US dependencies are plundered by foreign multi-nationals, local oligarchs and corrupt politicians.

            Colombia stands at the crossroads:  it can follow in the footsteps of its predecessor, narco-President Alvaro Uribe and remain a military dependency, a lone outpost of the US Empire in South AmericaColombia can remain at the margin of the most dynamic world markets and at war with its people or via a new socio-political leadership it can effect a profound reorientation of policy and consummate a transition toward greater integration with the dynamic markets of the world.

            Colombia has all the objective ingredients (material and human resources) to be part of the dynamic new order.  But first and foremost it must shed its role as the militarized vassal of the United States and an object of exploitation by a rentier oligarchy.  Colombia must cease backing US coups (Honduras, Venezuela) and threatening its neighbors (Ecuador).

            Colombia cannot develop its productive forces and finance the modernization of higher education and upgrade technical training and expend billions on the hundreds of thousands of military, paramilitary, police and intelligence operatives.  The military repressive apparatus is directed at repressing the most productive, creative e and motivated sectors of the labor force.  Prosperity depends on civil peace which depends on the profound demilitarization of the Colombian state.  The connection between economy and military is clear.  China spends one tenth of the US military budget but grows five times fasterBrazil’s independent foreign policy and realignment with the Asian market has led to high growth, while Mexico, as a satellite of the North American Free Trade Treaty, is a stagnant, failed state.

De-Militarization:  The Specificities of Colombia:

            Colombia is the most militarized society in Latin America, with the highest number of civil society victims.  “Militarism” in Colombia includes the largest active military force operating within state boundaries and being the largest recipient of military financing from the greatest militarist power in the world.  As a subordinate client of the US Empire, Colombia has the worst human rights record, as far as the killing of journalists, trade unionists, peasant activists and human rights advocates.

            State and para-state violence, however, is not random; over 4 million Colombian farmers, peasants and rural intermediaries have been forcibly dispossessed and their lands seized by big landowners, narco-traffickers, generals and businesspeople allied with the government.  In other words State terror and mass dispossession is a peculiarly Colombian method of “capital accumulation”.  State violence is the method  to secure the means of production to increase agro-exports at the expense of family farmers.

            In Colombia, state and para-state extermination replaces the market and “contractual relations” in effecting economic transactions.  The unequal relations between a militarist state and popular civil society movements has been the principal impediment to a transition from an oligarchical political regime to a pluralistic representative democratic electoral system.

         Colombia combines 19th century forms of elite representation with highly developed 21st century means of military repression:  a case of combined and uneven development.  As a result we find ‘unbalanced growth’; an overdeveloped military, police, paramilitary apparatus and underdeveloped social and political institutions willing and capably of engaging in negotiations through reciprocity and compromises within a civic framework.

            The state culture of “permanent war” undermines the conditions of trust and reciprocity and raises unacceptable risks to any social and political interlocutors.

            Within the militarized state – especially because of its deep-rooted links to regional US military institutions – only “negotiations” which reinforce the current socio-economic order and political institutional arrangement are acceptable. Even recognized “peace mediators” engage in one-sided “negotiations” demanding unilateral concessions from insurgents and rarely make demands for reciprocal concessions from the State.

            Most Latin American countries which have gone through a transition from dictatorial rule to electoral politics have respected opponents; only Colombia has murdered the entire political leadership and activists - from the Patriotic Union – who converted from armed to electoral struggle.  No other Latin American  (or European or Asian)opposition has experience the state violence inflicted on the Union Patriotica (UP):  the murder of 5,000 activists including Presidential and Congressional candidates.

            South America’s current center-left regimes, their thriving economies and the free and open social movement struggles, are a product of social upheavals (between 1999-2005) which ended ‘militarized politics’.  Popular revolts in Bolivia, Argentina, Ecuador, and Venezuela cleared the way for the Center-Left.  In Brazil, Uruguay and Chile social movements helped displace rightwing regimes.

            As a result of mass struggles and popular uprisings, center-left regimes pursue relatively independent economic policies and progressive anti-poverty programs.  They have raised living standards and provide political and social space for continued class struggle.

            Colombia is one of the few countries which have failed to make the transition from a right-wing militarist regime to a center-left welfare and development model, because unlike the rest of Latin America it has yet to experience a popular uprising, resulting in a new political configuration.

 

 

Peace Settlements:  Central America or Indo-China?

“Peace settlements” produce winners and losers and reflect the external and internal correlation of forces.  The process of negotiation, including who is consulted in setting priorities and making concessions ,is central to the future trajectory of the “peace process”.

Recent history provides us with two diametrically opposed ‘peace processes’ with dramatically different consequences:  the Indo-Chinese peace settlement of 1973-75 and the Central American peace settlements of 1992-1993.  In the case of Indo-China and more specifically the Vietnamese-US peace settlement, the National Liberation Front (NLF), secured the withdrawal of the US military forces, the dismantling of US military bases and the de-militarization of the state.  The NLF agreed to a process of political integration based on the recognition of certain basic socio-economic and political reforms, including agrarian reform, the repossession of farms by millions of displaced peasants and the prosecution of civilian and military officials charged with crimes against humanity.  The FLN negotiators made political concessions but were in close consultation with their mass base of peasants, workers and professionals.  They upheld the principle of democratizing the state and demilitarizing society as essential conditions for ending the war.

Over the past 35 years, Vietnam has evolved from an independent socialist toward a mixed public-private capitalist economy, transiting toward higher growth and higher living standards but increasing inequalities and greater corruption.

In contrast, the Central American peace agreements signed by the guerrilla leaders led to the end of armed conflict and the incorporation of the insurgent elite into the electoral system.  However, there were no basic changes in the military, economic and social system.  None of the mass popular organizations were consulted.  The bulk of the armed fighters, both popular insurgents and paramilitary mercenaries, were discharged and became an army of “armed” unemployed.  Over the past 20 years, criminal gangs have taken over large swathes of Central America, while the ex-Farabundo Marti guerrilla elite and their Guatemalan/ Nicaraguan colleagues, have become affluent businesspeople and allied with conservative electoral politicians.  They are protected by private bodyguards and oblivious of the conditions of 60% of the population living below the poverty-line.  The “peace accords” in Central America served as a vehicle for social mobility for the guerrilla elite.  They did not end the violence.  Every year more people meet a violent death than were killed during the years of civil war.

The Vietnamese and Central American peace agreements took place during different international moments.  In the 1970’s the Soviet Union and China provided broad international material and political support to the Vietnamese.  During the Central American peace negotiations, the Soviet Union disintegrated, China was turning to capitalism and Cuba was facing a “special period” of economic crises because of the loss of Soviet aid and trade.

Clearly the change in the international correlation of forces influenced but did not determine the unfavorable results in Central America.  In less than a decade after the disastrous Central American peace accords, Venezuela, under President Chavez, proceeded to defeat a coup and advanced toward a socialist transformation. Popular revolts overthrew neo-liberal rulers in Argentina, Bolivia, Ecuador and elsewhere.  The end of the USSR did not end successful class struggles in Latin America.

            The reactionary political correlation of forces of the 1990’s has changed dramatically.  By 2011, only Central America, Mexico and Colombia remain as islands of reaction in a sea of resurgent leftism and popular struggles in South America, North Africa and South Asia.

            The Central American peace settlement, with its acceptance of the militarized state, linked to agro-mineral export elites and narco-criminal gangs has become a monument for a failed “peace process”.  The Vietnamese peace settlement, while far from perfect, at least has provided peace, security, agrarian reform, and higher income for the peasantry and workers.         No doubt Colombia has historical and structural differences with Central American and Indo-China. 

            The armed social movements in Colombia have a specific history which preceded the Central Americans insurgents by many years and has developed political ties with certain regions and social movements which have endured over time.  Unlike Central American and Vietnam insurgents they are also not dependent on “external” supporters.  Above all the failed experience with “political reconciliation” in Central America has caused Colombian insurgents to raise significant conditions regarding the peace process, namely demilitarization and socio-economic reforms (agrarian reform and land recovery for the dispossessed).  “Peace at any price” will only lead to new and equally virulent forms of violence, as is the case today in Mexico with 10,000 killings a year 7,000 murders a year in El Salvador and an equal amount of homicides in Guatemala.

            The Vietnam experience of peace via social justice and de-militarization seems to ensure a modicum of prosperty.  Certainly the international correlation of forces has dramatically improved. Latin America has replaced neo-liberal puppet regimes.  The Latin American economies have found dynamic Asian markets independent of the US.  Popular revolts in the Middle East and Asia – from Tunisia to Afghanistan are forcing the US military to retreat.  The international and regional context is very favorable if Colombia can take advantage of it.  The method and modes of struggle ,those which unite popular movements without distinction, should be openly discussed and resolved without exclusions .  The insurgency is part of the solution, not the problem.  The key to a successful dialogue is the demilitarization of the state-ending the US military presence, terminating Plan Colombia and converting military spending to economic and social development.

 

           

 

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Aug 5, 2011

Here's Why S&P Downgraded U.S credit rating: a $1 Billion Bet

 

The $1 Billion Armageddon Trade Placed Against the United States Bond Market

Interest-Rates / US Bonds Jul 25, 2011 - 06:04 AM

By: Money_Morning

Interest-Rates

Jack Barnes writes : Someone dropped a bomb on the bond market Thursday - a $1 billion Armageddon trade betting the United States will lose its AAA credit rating.

In one moment, an invisible trader placed a single trade that moved the most liquid debt market in the world.

The massive trade wasn't placed in bonds themselves; it was placed in the futures market.

The trade was for block trades of 5,370 10-year Treasury futures executed at 124-03 and 3,100 Treasury bond futures executed at 125-01.

The value of the trade was about $850 million dollars. In simple terms, if that was a direct bond buy, no one would be talking about it.

However, with the use of futures, you have to have margin capacity behind the trade. That means with a single push of a button someone was willing to commit more than $1 billion of real capital to this trade with expectations of a 10-to-1 return ratio.

You only do this if you see an edge.

This means someone is confident that the United States is either going to default or is going to lose its AAA rating. That someone is willing to bet the proverbial farm that U.S. interest rates will be going up.

I believe what happened is a debt-ceiling deal was done in Washington and leaked to a major proprietary trader. Everyone knows the debt negotiations in Washington have been an extreme game of brinksmanship between political parties, but now someone knows how that game played out.

This had the hallmarks of one of the largest bond shops in the world knowing something the rest of the market didn't.

The number of shops or even central banks that can take on this level of market risk is extremely small. Some that come to mind are hedge fund manager John Paulson, Bill Gross's PIMCO, and the U.S. and Chinese central banks.

Paulson already scored big - about $6 billion big - on a similar trade years ago when he bet against subprime mortgages, the investments that helped bring down Lehman Bros. and many other investors.

Whoever was behind it wanted a trade on ASAP, and didn't care about the ripples they would cause.

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article29477.html

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S & P's Downgrade Purely Political Act Against President Obama

 

The U.S. Treasury Dept. said "A judgment flawed by a $2 trillion error speaks for itself."
 
ron sez: "This was purely a political act by Standard and Poor aimed at President Obama. The other two credit reporting agencies didn't issue any such downgrade - S&P is the same group of crooks who issued TRIPLE AAA credit ratings to all these failed mortgage securities. S&P was complicit in the big Wall Street fiasco. Since the S&P announcement, Republicans have issued a Pahvlovian-type response, railing against President Obama, blaming Obama for this downgrade. S&P Republicans couldn't stand how Obama has been bullet-proof against their failed attacks and failing economy; so this was a move they felt would stick against Obama's re-election run."
 
Treasury Dept.: Downgrade flawed by $2-Trillion error
By
S&P credit rating (Credit: CBS)

The Obama administration wasted little time in firing back at Standard and Poor's history-making downgrade of U.S. debt.

Late Friday, a Treasury Dept. spokesman told CBS News' Mark Knoller that "A judgment flawed by a $2-trillion error speaks for itself."

It was the first salvo in what will likely be extensive damage control by the Obama Administration, which now goes down in history as the first presidency to have a credit downgrade occur on its watch.

S&P cited "political brinksmanship" from both parties in its downgrade.

S&P downgrades U.S. debt
S & P statement on downgrade of U.S. debt

In as statement released Friday, S&P said: "The political brinksmanship of recent months highlights what we see as America's governance and policy making becoming less stable, less effective, and less predictable than what we previously believed."

"Republicans and Democrats have only been able to agree to relatively modest savings on discretionary spending while delegating to the Select Committee decisions on more comprehensive measures. It appears that for now, new revenues have dropped down on the menu of policy options. In addition, the plan envisions only minor policy changes on Medicare and little change in other entitlements, the containment of which we and most other independent observers regard as key to long-term fiscal sustainability."

President Obama met with Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner on Friday before heading to Camp David for the weekend.

The credit rating agency announced Friday that it is cutting the country's top AAA rating by one notch to AA-plus. The credit agency said late Friday that it is making the move because the deficit reduction plan passed by Congress on Tuesday did not go far enough to stabilize the country's debt situation and that the policymaking is not stable or effective as needed to address the current economic challenge.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20088959-503544.html

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Thomas Dalton: Jewish Wealth, American Poverty (Aug. 5, 2011) [1 Attachment]



Hi Michael -- See attached.  

Thanks,
Thomas.

Anders Breivik: A Fundamentalist Noahide By Richard Edmondson

 

Anders Breivik: A Fundamentalist Noahide

By Richard Edmondson

[A shortened and edited version; read in full on http://leftwing-christian.net/ This is a very important article explaining that far from being a fundamentalist Christian, Breivik was a fundamentalist Noahide, a biggish sect whose members de-emphasize Christ and deify Jews. He even dreamed to build the Third Temple! Richard Edmondson answered the question that many of us pondered and pinpointed the religious ideas of Breivik- ISH]

Insofar as children and teens were the principal and deliberate targets, the atrocity of Breivik revealed a level of malevolence scarcely seen or imagined before. Perhaps the only thing that could compare to it would be the deliberate targeting of Palestinian children by Israeli soldiers during Operation Cast Lead.
Since the 7/22 terror attack, a number of Christian writers ( here and here for instance) have hastened to point out that Anders Breivik, though painted as a "Christian fundamentalist" by the media, does not appear to have been deeply religious and mainly seems to have been Christian in name only. While this may be true, what it overlooks is that such a de-emphasis of Christ is largely in keeping with Christian Zionism.
In Christian Zionism, Christ is reduced to a minor, almost inconsequential figure. CZs are quick to point out that Jesus was Jewish, and that's certainly a point in his favor where they are concerned, but the vast majority of his teachings are discarded. For CZs, the real object of worship is the Jewish people in a collective sense. Let me repeat that: CZs do not worship Christ; they worship Jews.
[…]So far as I know, it was Eileen Fleming who first drew an analogy between Christian Zionism and the Antichrist, writing: "The cult of 'Christian' Zionism is what the concept of the Anti-Christ is all about. This heretical theology of Premillennial Dispensation worships a god of Armageddon and not the God of love, forgiveness and compassion that Jesus/AKA The Prince of Peace taught." Christian Zionism has indeed become an "Antichrist virus" (for lack of a better metaphor) that has caught hold of Christianity and spread to near epidemic proportions. So acute is the problem, I suspect that what we are headed toward now is a rupturing of the faith similar to what took place in Judaism 2000 years ago with the rise of Christianity. In fact, one Catholic blogger has gone so far as to suggest that Christian Zionists are not Christians at all, but are in reality "Noahides":

Christians are not supposed to support Zionism. Nor are Christians supposed to support Judaism, as the religion itself seeks to undermine Christianity by sponsoring a new religion for Gentiles called Noahidism. Make no mistake about it, the purpose of this religion is to replace Christianity in the distant future.


The blogger is correct. Noahidism, based upon the so-called Seven Laws of Noah (see video), is a Talmudic construct that has been heavily promoted by the Chabad Lubavitch movement. It does not encompass any belief in Christ, who in fact is vilified by the Talmud.

Another common misconception about CZs is that they hope to trigger Armageddon and thereby bring about the second coming of Christ, but again we have to remember that Christ is not the main consideration. The primary object of veneration is Jews:

It was Judaism that believed man was created in God's image. It was traditional Judaism that gave us the concepts of hell, heaven, angels, devils, the acceptance of Adam and Eve as the first man and woman, the creation of the world in seven days, and even its age, four thousand years.
 
It was Judaism that taught us to sing while other religions wail in sorrow. It was Judaism that gave us love and respect for life. While pagan religions sacrificed their children to foreign gods, Judaism gave us a loving God who adored the life of every child.


The above words were written by Christian Zionist leader John Hagee in his book, In Defense of Israel (pg. 96-7). Hagee goes on to claim that the Old Testament "is the light of truth and reason upon which our society and civilization is built;" he asserts that Muslims "intend to crush Israel and destroy America;" and even defends the bombing of the King David Hotel. An attack which left 91 people dead, the blowing up of the King David was carried out by the Jewish Irgun exactly 65 years to the day before the atrocity in Norway.

 

Whether Breivik had ever come upon any of Hagee's writings or his numerous videos on YouTube I have no idea, but as I noted previously, this kind of ideology has the properties of a virus. And of course it's not hard to imagine a social misfit, such as Breivik seems to have been, coming to conceive that a murder spree against critics of Israel might be a good thing and coming to adopt such as his mission in life.

While, as I said, bringing Jesus back for the second time is not the sought-after prize, a struggle between good and evil—Armageddon if you will—does factor heavily in Christian Zionist theology, and so yes, for sure, the "end times" are very much upon us. What is "ending," however, will be the idea of equality of all people, the "multiculturalism" espoused by such as the present ruling party of Norway, to be replaced by a Jewish world order—and here is where the dividing line between Christian Zionism and Noahidism becomes very thin. In fact, they could be viewed as two separate strains of the same virus.

Noahidism is basically Christian Zionism with all the trappings of Christianity—any mention of Christ or loving your neighbor, etc.—formally erased and dispensed of. What is left is the belief that Gentiles must abide by the "seven Laws of Noah"—a set of principles that sound basically reasonable but which derive from the Talmud, not the Torah. They include six proscriptions—against murder, theft, blasphemy, idol worship, sexual immorality and eating the flesh of living animals—and one mandate—that judicial courts be set up. As I say, it sounds perfectly reasonable, but it's important to realize that in Noahidism, Jews are regarded as spiritually superior, and that by default they hold authority. In my last post, I linked to a video here featuring an Orthodox Jew discussing the seven Noahide Laws. It is a 10-minute video exuding Jewish superiority at just about every camera frame as the presenter explains, among other things, how it is that the Jewish soul is able to hold more light than a Gentile's.

In another video, here , a Chabad rabbi gives a talk on Noahidism to gullible Gentiles ( or b'nei Noach, or "children of Noah," as they are referred in Hebrew), while here a separate rabbi discusses how "righteous Gentiles" are in need of "guidelines for functioning together as a community," and finally, here , we are promised nothing short of world peace, miraculous medical cures, and a 12 hour work week if only Jews rule the world.

Are significant numbers of Gentiles really buying into this? Hard to say, but if Zionists can sell them soap, beer, and toothpaste, it probably stands to reason they will buy this as well. Here we can read of a Chabad rabbi's experiences teaching Noahide classes to Gentiles in Australia, as well as view a photo gallery of his converts, (on the subject of intermarriage between Jews and Gentiles, he comments, tellingly, that the practice is "spiritually detrimental" for both groups and compares it to the field of chemistry wherein "we find that certain substances are harmless and even useful on their own, or when mixed with other substances, but are lethal when mixed with each other."), while Noahide communities in various cities and countries have set up their own sites hereherehereherehere, and here. There is also a Noahide group onYahoo, and even a Russian Noahide group.

Neo-fascists? Or Noahides? Take your pick. Perhaps most pertinent of all, on March 5, 1991, Noahidism pretty much became the official religion of the United States Congress. This is when Congress ratified H.J. Resolution 104 honoring Chabad Rabbi Memachem Mendel Schneerson and enshrining the seven Noahide Laws as the "edifice of civilization." As I noted in a post more than a year ago, the timing of this resolution was quite curious—coming less than a week after the U.S. carried out a massive overnight bombing of a retreating Iraqi convoy, a war crime incident that became known as the Highway of Death. A question that may now need to be considered is to what extent all this could be viewed as having been predicted. "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. Each tree is recognized by its own fruit," said Jesus 2000 years ago. If we think of Zionism as the tree and Israel as the fruit of that tree, the tree has indeed borne bad fruit. What sort of unsavory fruit might we now expect from a Zionist, "anti-Christ" religion for Gentiles?

 

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Fun stuff to read, tell and watch:

Now FREE to watch all 91 minutes: "Defamation," from Israeli filmmaker Yoav Shamir. LINK: http://tinyurl.com/3rvhdvc

Some of His Best Friends Are Jewish: The Saga of a Holocaust Revisionist By Nathaniel Popper. Link: http://tinyurl.com/3v6m88c

...an Israeli lawyer has filed a class-action lawsuit against former President Jimmy Carter, seeking $5 million in damages because his book "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid" allegedly defamed Israel. Link: http://tinyurl.com/3pltqg2

"...when you have laws against questioning the Holocaust narrative, you are screaming at the other person to stop thinking!!!" ---Mike Santomauro. *Anthony Lawson's Holocaust Video "were the Germans so stupid"... Link: http://tinyurl.com/44nsrco

An anti-Semite condemns people for being Jews, I am not an anti-Semite.--Mike Santomauro. Link: http://tinyurl.com/42z9p8o

Start reading DEBATING THE HOLOCAUST in under a minute: http://tinyurl.com/3f8h874

Peace.

Mike Santomauro
Editorial Director
Call anytime: 917-974-6367




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CBS NEWS: S&P downgrades U.S. debt

 
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Aug 4, 2011

Gilad Atzmon vs Greenstein debate the Holocaust

 


T. GREENSTEIN: OBSESSIONS & DARK CRIMINAL PAST

NOVANEWS'

People like you, Mr. Greenstein, should be put in preventive custody!' 

Dr: Gabi Weber

This is an long exchange e-mail between Gilad Atzmon and Tony Greenstein before you read it I copied an e-mail sent by Dr Gabi Weber her e-mail shed the light on the Greenstein true nature it is for you to judge not for us.

Subject: Re: Stop bothering!!!!

Hello Mr. Greenstein,

as physician, working with all kinds of patients for years now, I am used to many different symptoms, diseases, psychological disorders and so on. Fortunately until now I never before was involved in dirty games and tricks as I am experiencing in the emails you are sending for days now. Even the mentally sickest of my patients I ever had, was not as sick as you are!

And to say it clear – KEEP ME OUT OF YOUR MAD INTRIGUES!

My time is too precious to deal with people who are obviously full of hatred, only aiming at destroying other people´s lifes.

Really, I have pity for you. What kind of life must this be, to spend years over years by trying to demolish the career of a person and to see that all the efforts are leading to nothing? On the contrary, the person you try to destroy is getting more and more popular and successful. What a shame for you!

Your behaviour proves exactly, what is happening in the so-called Palestinian Solidarity Movement. We are infiltrated with dirty Hasbara, this is very clear.

Perhaps you should try to find something beautiful for your life? You could try to use your talents, which you certainly have but that you bury under tons of hate and negative energy. Imagine if you simply tried to take all this energy you need for the attempts to destroy Gilad Atzmon and did something positive with it. Perhaps we already would have a Palestinian State?????

As I told you in my last email, I am very attentive in what is happening around my Freiburg conference. In case I get any information of your ongoing attempt to bother my speakers I will start publicizing everything.

Best wishes

Dr. Gabi Weber

—————————————

Atzmon vs Greenstein

From: Gilad Atzmon

To: tony greenstein

Sent: Wed, 3 August, 2011 10:06:08

Subject: Re: Conference on Historical Revisionism

TG: Yes of course you can have competing narratives. One which says there was a holocaust but there are many things we will never fully understand about it or one which says there was no such thing or 'only' a few hundred thousand Jews died of typhus. I suspect I know which one you subscribe to.

GA: I actually do not have any interest in issues to do with numbers , pornography of death or Holocaust necrophilia, I am after the meaning of the shoa, and as you may know, meanings are in flux.

TG: Yes I know that issues of truthfulness are more complicated than the 3 bears but the principle remains the same. Is the holocaust, the decimation of 10m Africans in the Congo, the slave trade etc. just a narrative or is it firmly grounded factually? Otherwise we just get into word games.

GA: You obviously do not understand what the word narrative stands for. There is no contradiction between the notion of the narrative and factuality. The narrative is manner in which facts are picked and set into a tale.

TG: I am fully aware of what the conditional 'if' means. To be precise it means you cast doubt on something,

GA: Nonsense, you are simply not familiar with hypothetical manner of speech. You are under developed for you age. It is not a crime but nothing to be proud of.

TG: So when you say 'if Auschwitz was a death camp' or some such you are casting doubt on that fact.

GA: Try to concentrate-there is a contradiction between the H narrative and the 'death march' one . If the Nazis wanted the Jews out, why did they schlepped them back?

Please come with an answer? Also, please enlighten me and suggest how to pronounce the paradox above without using the word 'if'.

TG: When you say ' if 2+2=4 then 2+1+1=4′ then that certainly casts doubt on whether 2+2=4 otherwise you would just come out and say 2+2=4 therefore 2+1+1 also = 4

GA: No Tony, this is called implication. A conditional manner of speech. the 2 statments have different meanings. I guess that you have to learn deductive logic so you realise that 'if -then' is a pretty basic formula of argumetation known as P->Q

TG: I am aware of the purpose of the IF statement, having done Mathematics at degree level.

GA: Tony, don't bulshit me with your phantasmic degrees. Along the many press clips about your vast criminal record (shoplifting, credit card theft, vandalism and so on) I came across one clip that says that you were kicked out from university for being a vandal. Knowing you as a compulsive liar, I suggest that we stay at argument level. Please don't wave the qualifications you do not have. Also if you would have a degree in math, you would know what the world 'if' stand for and how is it used.

TG: So when, to use your example, one says 'If X then Y' then of course there is a question mark over whether X exists in the form posited.

You give the example of 'If the sun is larger than earth and the earth is larger than the moon then the sun is larger than the moon.'

No of course you are not doubting the existence of the sun but you are questioning whether it is larger than the earth. That is the logical statement in question and that is the context.

GA: Again you are not familiar with hypothetical manner of speech. We call it a logical deductive move, it doesn't involve doubt.

Let us look at the following obvious example

If X=Y and Z=Y then X=Z

The above suggest an implication rather than a doubt. Also do you really think that when I say 2+2=4 I cast a doubt?

I must admit that this is the first time I run a philosophical debate with a moron. It is an amazing experience. I sometime under estimate your stupidity.

TG: So when you say. If, for instance, the Nazis wanted the Jews out of their Reich (Judenrein – free of Jews), or even dead, as the Zionist narrative insists, how come they marched hundreds of thousands of them back into the Reich at the end of the war?'

You are doubting the Nazis wanted the Jews out of the Reich, because after all, according to your logic, if they wanted them out why did they march them back in?

GA: I suggest that the two narrative cannot live together within the same historical setting unless an explanation is provided. I ve the explanation… but what is your explanation tony?

TG: Likewise if you say. 'If the Nazis ran a death factory in Auschwitz-Birkenau, why would the Jewish prisoners join them at the end of the war?'

The clear implication is that Auschwitz-Birkenau is not a death factory, otherwise why would Jewish prisoners join them at the end of the war? The Stockholm Syndrome?

GA: No this suggests a discrepancy at the heart of the discourse. If Jews were aware of Nazi homicidal inclinations, how come they joined them at the end of the war as Holocaust scholar Israel Gutman suggests? Again please explain it to me , you may also argue that Gutman is a liar or idiot. I don't really care… but just try to come up with something..

TG: And you confirm this interpretation by asking for 'some conclusive historical evidence.' Nothing metaphysical mind you!

GA: You still do not understand what metaphysics stands for. There is no contradiction between evidence and metaphysics.

TG: 'We should ask for some conclusive historical evidence and arguments rather than follow a religious narrative…'

I am not a member of any synagogue, left or right. You really can't help the anti-Semitic stuff. It's second nature I'm afraid.

GA: You are not just a member, you are a failure Rabbi, with an extremely small congregation of people who must be just slightly more limited than yourself..

TG: Likewise the fact of the holocaust is neither a narrative nor religion. A religion means it is unquestioning.

GA: As far as I can see, you invest a lot of energy trying to stop others and myself, in particular, from questioning H and other Jewish narratives. So it is a religion and you are a leading cantor (as well as a Rabbi). You cry for heaven day and night, praying for Gilad to be stopped.

TG: There are many questions concerning the holocaust in the widest sense but you ask none of them and instead stick to the agenda of neo-Nazis and revisionists of doubting whether it happened.

GA: Tony, trying to label me won't solve your problem. And why do you stop with neo Nazi? What about pedophilia? For the record, I am not associated with any group or school of thought. I advocate freedom of speech. And I indeed support any form of revisionism. I am not afraid of thoughts or ideas, I am far more concerned with tribal morbidity as performed by you and your ilk. And as you know, I am very good in exposing it. You will find out very soon soon that my take on the subject is endorsed by the biggest scholars in the Pls discourse.

TG: This is dump stupidity or malevolence or both. There are all sorts of questions. I mentioned Daniel Goldhagen. He raises many issues, all of them reactionary, about the knowledge of ordinary Germans, their indifference etc. There is considerable research in this area. Comparative history is helpful, but you are stuck with the basics because you can't get it into your head that there is no doubt about the mass exterminations of the Nazis.

GA: So if I understand you correctly, you now plan to tell us what we are allowed to ask… how progressive of you.

TG: There is too much evidence. Did Rauf ever deny he was involved in the development of the gas trucks? Was the 'euthenasia' denied? Grow up and start dealing with the things that researchers, some of whom are not Zionists, are doing.

GA: Tony, all of that, has nothing to do with my body of work or research. I argue that history is the art of revising the past. You are against it, Judaism is against it. You operate politically as a Jew, is it a coincidence? I don't think so! You are simply a Zionist amd a rabid one.

TG: In the conflict between anti-Zionists like Vrba and the collaborationist Zionists you not only have nothing to say but you appear to justify the role of the Zionists.

GA: I am familiar with Vrba report, but the reaction to the report is also very interesting. However, I m not interested in the imaginary debate between Zionists and the so called 'anti' Zionists. I am much more interested in the exposure of this debate as a spin of fake pluralism.

TG: Your whole framework, Jew=Zionist, left Jew = more Zionist is crude and counterproductive.

GA: Please be precise. I do not talk about Jews. I say that everyone who identify politically as a Jew is a Zionist. You, for instance operate politically as a Jew and you are indeed a rabid Zionist. Interestingly enough you act like ADL and Hasbara. Only one difference is noticeable, unlike ADL, you are pretty clumsy and astonishingly lame. I guess your operators will have to send someone slightly more sophisticated and soon. It is a shame, because by now, it is almost fun dealing with you.












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Fun stuff to read, tell and watch:

Now FREE to watch all 91 minutes: "Defamation," from Israeli filmmaker Yoav Shamir. LINK: http://tinyurl.com/3rvhdvc

Some of His Best Friends Are Jewish: The Saga of a Holocaust Revisionist By Nathaniel Popper. Link: http://tinyurl.com/3v6m88c

...an Israeli lawyer has filed a class-action lawsuit against former President Jimmy Carter, seeking $5 million in damages because his book "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid" allegedly defamed Israel. Link: http://tinyurl.com/3pltqg2

"...when you have laws against questioning the Holocaust narrative, you are screaming at the other person to stop thinking!!!" ---Mike Santomauro. *Anthony Lawson's Holocaust Video "were the Germans so stupid"... Link: http://tinyurl.com/44nsrco

An anti-Semite condemns people for being Jews, I am not an anti-Semite.--Mike Santomauro. Link: http://tinyurl.com/42z9p8o

Start reading DEBATING THE HOLOCAUST in under a minute: http://tinyurl.com/3f8h874

Peace.

Mike Santomauro
Editorial Director
Call anytime: 917-974-6367




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